Author Topic: Edit the Sunshine Textbook  (Read 17612 times)

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2012, 03:45:22 PM »
For example:
Fish are cool.  My pet fish is awesome.  Do fish dream? 
Kappa are cool.  My pet kappa is awesome.  Do kappa dream?

Thanks for the insight.  And yes, that's right about not adding the plural "s" to the end of Japanese words.

The only difference with your fish/kappa example and my question is that you add a quantifier in order to change it.  However, this also helps point towards the use of "they" in my question since there is no quantifier.

And the final piece of the puzzle, provided by Josiah, then confirms the use of "they" in the example.

Mission accomplished.  Thanks for all the great detective work.
CSI Kofu...

Jotham

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2012, 12:56:11 AM »
Thanks for the feedback.
I suspect they use "about" in the first one (not "around") because they are trying to use what limited vocab the kids know which still gets the meaning across.

OK, well a few pages on they do decide to use "around" so there goes that theory:

1. I called you around six.
2. I called you at around six.

PS ---also thanks for teaching me about brackets/parentheses

I'm pretty sure that the sentence should make sense with the around or about. They are just adding information to the sentance but the sentance should make sense on its own. I.e. I called you at six.
The same goes for adverbs of time. I play soccer. I sometimes play soccer.
With the 'at' is common in spoken English but that's because we're lazy  :|
Wouldn't it be nice, to get on with my neighbours!

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2012, 10:15:32 AM »
Thanks everyone for your input.  I know sometimes it's hard to determine what's the correct way vs. a matter of preference, but everyone's comments here have been very helpful.

The following could be true, I guess, but I suspect it is just a common mis-translation:
"We worked at a famous supermarket." 
What they probably mean is "We worked at a popular supermarket."

Anyhow, grammar-wise this next one is probably fine, but just wondering if it sounds odd to anyone?
"I was a member of the chorus when I was a student."

mike

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2012, 11:45:05 AM »
Anyhow, grammar-wise this next one is probably fine, but just wondering if it sounds odd to anyone?
"I was a member of the chorus when I was a student."

Sounds okay. Context could make the phrasing seem better or worse, depending.

My personal preference would be along the lines of: "I was a choir member when I was a student."  Or "I was a chorus member when I was a student" if they are talking about musical theatre / opera.

vankuzco

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2012, 01:52:49 PM »
Program 5 section 3 introduces "some time" but as it is written as two words it is incorrect.  the usage in the book should be written as "sometime" so that should be fixed. 

The adverb sometime (one word) means "at an indefinite or unstated time in the future." The phrase some time (two words) means "a period of time."
Awesome.  That's a good one!  I wonder if any JTE's can tell the difference?
"If you like sports, let's play tennis some time."

Here's another question. 
Is there a rule about using Japanese words in English sentences?
Examples:
A: What do you think of sushi?
B: I think it’s delicious.

A: What do you think of samurai?
B: I think they’re cool.”

Sushi is singular just because it's a category word and if the category word is singular, so is the verb. It doesn't follow the rules of a loan word really.

Sushi is delicious.
Meat is delicious
Vegetables are delicious.
matt from tsuru.  until i can think of something witty.

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2012, 01:55:48 PM »
My personal preference would be along the lines of: "I was a choir member when I was a student."  Or "I was a chorus member when I was a student" if they are talking about musical theatre / opera.
Thanks.  I was kinda wondering about the use of the word "chorus" which sounded a little funny to me.  But I couldn't think of anything better...

Here's a couple more random ones that are similar in that they use "be" and "become" to mean the same thing:

1. "If I try to be kind to other people, they will become kind to me too."
2. "So I’m practicing cooking every day to be a good chef."
3. "Can adult dogs become happy with new owners?"

Personally, I don't think "be" and "become" are always interchangaqble, as the Japanese tend to translate them ---though often the end result is the same.
I would change these to:

1. "If I try to be kind to other people, they will be kind to me too."
2. "So I practice cooking every day in order to become a good chef."
3. "Can adult dogs be happy with new owners?"

Of course, context can influence this too.

mike

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2012, 03:04:52 PM »

1. "If I try to be kind to other people, they will be kind to me too."
2. "So I practice cooking every day in order to become a good chef."
3. "Can adult dogs be happy with new owners?"


1. "If I try to be kind to other people, they will (try to?) be kind to me too."
  I don't know.  Personally I don't see that as a cause-and-effect, if-then statement.  You can be kind to other people all you want, but how they treat you is largely not resultant of your actions.  So I'd call a fallacy on the logic and shrug my shoulders at the grammar.

2. "So I practice cooking every day in order to become a good chef."
  Maybe add something to help clarify that it is in the future - in order to one day become, for example.  "In order to be" makes it sound like you are a good chef and you must continue to practice to remain a good chef - which is a completely legitimate sentence but probably not what is trying to be communicated.

3. "Can adult dogs be happy with new owners?"
The way I interpret it:
A.  "dogs be happy" - In a hypothetical situation where we have an old dog with new owners, is it possible that the dog is happy?
B.  "dogs become happy" - In a hypothetical situation where we have an old dog with new owners, is it possible that the dog could ever one day be happy?

To me, B implies that it is likely that adult dogs with new owners by default start out their relationships as unhappy, and whether that can change is what is put into question.  With A, the question doesn't suggest against the possibility that an adult dog could be placed with new owners and be happy right from the get go.  Imagine this dialogue:

Prospective Adopter: "Is it possible for adult dogs to be happy with new owners?"
Trainer: "No, most breeds will not handle that kind of change well and will not be happy with an unfamiliar family.  It is possible, however, that they could become happy after a long period with caring owners."

Actually, that brings up something else I missed.  A demands that the owners be new, while B allows for the owners to be new now but to become familiar at a future point in time.

I like the sound of "be" better, for whatever that is worth.

Are these sentences from the book, students, or what?

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2012, 03:29:36 PM »
Sushi is singular just because it's a category word and if the category word is singular, so is the verb. It doesn't follow the rules of a loan word really.

Sushi is delicious.
Meat is delicious
Vegetables are delicious.
Ah, right ---so being a category would make it uncountable.  Much like water or sake...
And this was the reason it was important to determine whether ukiyoe was also countable or not.  If the word referred to the technique rather than the product, it would have been a category.

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2012, 03:50:24 PM »
1. "If I try to be kind to other people, they will (try to?) be kind to me too."
  I don't know.  Personally I don't see that as a cause-and-effect, if-then statement.  You can be kind to other people all you want, but how they treat you is largely not resultant of your actions.  So I'd call a fallacy on the logic and shrug my shoulders at the grammar.
Haha ---yeah.  Don't let the logic throw you off.  I'm just wondering which sounds better, "be" or "become"...

2. "So I practice cooking every day in order to become a good chef."
  Maybe add something to help clarify that it is in the future - in order to one day become, for example.  "In order to be" makes it sound like you are a good chef and you must continue to practice to remain a good chef - which is a completely legitimate sentence but probably not what is trying to be communicated.
Yeah, sorry, this was taken out of context a little.  Takeshi is going on about his plans to open a Japanese restaurant and then he says this.  The point is he is a crap chef now, but wants to become a good one.  I think that impression is lost in the original sentence and it could be interpreted that he is just practicing to stay sharp.

3. "Can adult dogs be happy with new owners?"
The way I interpret it:
A.  "dogs be happy" - In a hypothetical situation where we have an old dog with new owners, is it possible that the dog is happy?
B.  "dogs become happy" - In a hypothetical situation where we have an old dog with new owners, is it possible that the dog could ever one day be happy?

To me, B implies that it is likely that adult dogs with new owners by default start out their relationships as unhappy, and whether that can change is what is put into question.  With A, the question doesn't suggest against the possibility that an adult dog could be placed with new owners and be happy right from the get go.  Imagine this dialogue:

Prospective Adopter: "Is it possible for adult dogs to be happy with new owners?"
Trainer: "No, most breeds will not handle that kind of change well and will not be happy with an unfamiliar family.  It is possible, however, that they could become happy after a long period with caring owners."

Actually, that brings up something else I missed.  A demands that the owners be new, while B allows for the owners to be new now but to become familiar at a future point in time.

I like the sound of "be" better, for whatever that is worth.
Again, in context of the story: there was an earthquake and a vet rounded up a bunch of pets.  He then tried to find new homes for them, but wondered how the dogs and new owners would make out.
Hence the question, "Can adult dogs become happy with new owners?"

I like your thinking here.  In order to become happy it assumes that the dogs are unhappy.  Though we are not specifically told if they are or not (despite being homeless in an earthquake).

Are these sentences from the book, students, or what?
These sentences are taken from various places in the junior high grade 2 textbook.  I just put them together here because they use the be/become thing.
This textbook just came out in April and the publisher is looking for feedback to improve it for next year, so I am analyzing it from cover to cover.  Whether they take any of our advice is another matter, but any input is always worth it...

mike

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2012, 04:42:12 PM »
These sentences are taken from various places in the junior high grade 2 textbook.

Cool!  I was just curious.  Sorry if I'm commenting a lot; I find grammar really interesting and there aren't too many grammar-based discussions going on.  =|

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2012, 03:24:00 PM »
These sentences are taken from various places in the junior high grade 2 textbook.
Cool!  I was just curious.  Sorry if I'm commenting a lot; I find grammar really interesting and there aren't too many grammar-based discussions going on.  =|

No problem ---please keep the comments coming! 
They are very helpful!

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2012, 09:45:36 AM »
Is anyone able to explain the difference between the use of "to" and "for" in the following examples? 
I do have a few ideas, but which sounds better, and why?

1. A: What's the most important thing to you, time, money, or health?
    B: Health is the most important of all to me.

2. A: What's the most important thing for you, time, money, or health?
    B: Health is the most important of all for me.

Also, do you think the question needs a colon after you?
Thanks.

jesse

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 11:35:11 AM »
Is anyone able to explain the difference between the use of "to" and "for" in the following examples? 
I do have a few ideas, but which sounds better, and why?

1. A: What's the most important thing to you, time, money, or health?
    B: Health is the most important of all to me.

2. A: What's the most important thing for you, time, money, or health?
    B: Health is the most important of all for me.

Also, do you think the question needs a colon after you?
Thanks.

Seems like grammatically the difference between "to" and "for" is pretty negligable, but with "important", "to" sounds better for no reason in particular. 

however, i think that since they are giving a list of things to choose from, "Which" would be better than "What"

jesse

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 11:56:16 AM »
book 3 page 66. talking about tea ceremonies. 

Temae is the procedure for performing chado.  There are some styles to perform it.  In any of the styles the host and the guests enjoy the time as the only chance to meet each other.  This idea is called ichigo- ichie. 

"There are some styles to perform it."

sounds bad to me.  they should either use a different word for "some" or change it to

"There are some different styles to perform it."
"There is more than one style to perform it"

next
"In any of the styles"
 seems like some people might say this, but it sounds wrong to me. 

"In all of the styles"
sounds easier and better i think.

Croninokehige

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2012, 11:59:06 AM »
Is anyone able to explain the difference between the use of "to" and "for" in the following examples? 
I do have a few ideas, but which sounds better, and why?

1. A: What's the most important thing to you, time, money, or health?
    B: Health is the most important of all to me.

2. A: What's the most important thing for you, time, money, or health?
    B: Health is the most important of all for me.

Also, do you think the question needs a colon after you?
Thanks.

Seems like grammatically the difference between "to" and "for" is pretty negligable, but with "important", "to" sounds better for no reason in particular. 

however, i think that since they are giving a list of things to choose from, "Which" would be better than "What"

agreed on both of these

fred

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 12:06:24 PM »
Is anyone able to explain the difference between the use of "to" and "for" in the following examples? 
I do have a few ideas, but which sounds better, and why?

1. A: What's the most important thing to you, time, money, or health?
    B: Health is the most important of all to me.

2. A: What's the most important thing for you, time, money, or health?
    B: Health is the most important of all for me.

Also, do you think the question needs a colon after you?
Thanks.

I feel that both are correct but for different reasons.

to
would indicate that the question is asking for personal reasons. Health is most important to me because I have seen much suffering in the world and I have realised how important it is to me.
for would indicate that they are looking for practical reasons and is searching for a justificaton. Time is most important for me at the moment as I am bogged down with work.

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 12:30:37 PM »
Thanks everyone for the feedback on this.  And thanks Jesse for digging up all those other "awkward moments in textbook history"...  :-D  I'm still plugging away at the grade 2 book, but I have taken note. 

So, if I understand correctly, either "to" or "for" is fine? 
I guess we can let this one go... just sometimes "for" sounds better than "to" for some reason which I cannot explain. 

I did find a discussion on the Internet that explained it by saying if something is important "to" someone, they hold it in high regard.  Whereas, if something is important "for" someone, they may not even like it, but it will help them some way.
Perhaps broccoli is an example ---whether you personally consider healthy eating important or not, it is.

And regarding the "which" vs. "what" question, as in "What do you like best, brocolli, asparagus, or pizza?"
This is fine to me :wink:.  I would use "which" if there were only two choices, however.  I consider it like the use of どち and どれ in Japanese... 
Does anyone else find this strange?

And should we put a colon after "best"?  What if the list only has two things?

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2012, 09:46:19 AM »
And regarding the "which" vs. "what" question, as in "What do you like best, brocolli, asparagus, or pizza?"
This is fine to me :wink:.  I would use "which" if there were only two choices, however.  I consider it like the use of どち and どれ in Japanese... 
OK ---I think I found the answer to this:
Basically, "which" is used if there is a finite number of possible choices, and "what" is used if the possibilities are infinite.
Example:
1) What is your favourite movie? (infinite)
2) Which is your favourite movie, the Terminator, Pink Flamingos, or Toy Story? (choose 1 of 3 finite possibilities)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 09:48:30 AM by Captain Bonerpants »

mike

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2012, 09:49:09 AM »
I did find a discussion on the Internet that explained it by saying if something is important "to" someone, they hold it in high regard.  Whereas, if something is important "for" someone, they may not even like it, but it will help them some way.

That's kind of how I see it.

And regarding the "which" vs. "what" question, as in "What do you like best, brocolli, asparagus, or pizza?"

Which can be applied in a situation of two or more choices.  The important thing about "which" usage is that there is a pool of choices from which to choose.  In a parking lot you may ask "Which car is yours?" but you would not ask a friend "Which do you want for dinner?" if you're sitting on the couch without choices in front of you (it would be "What do you want for dinner?").

And should we put a colon after "best"?  What if the list only has two things?

I would go for the colon.  Have the students learned about colon usage by that point, though?

Jotham

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2012, 10:30:17 AM »

I would go for the colon.  Have the students learned about colon usage by that point, though?

I guess that's the spanner in the works for "Capatin Bonerpants" (sorry don't know your name and that just felt really weird typing that). But yeah, the problem is not just editing it so it's grammatically correct but making sure that you are using the vocabulary and grammar that the students have learnt.
Wouldn't it be nice, to get on with my neighbours!

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2012, 11:55:48 AM »
I would go for the colon.  Have the students learned about colon usage by that point, though?
I guess that's the spanner in the works for "Capatin Bonerpants" (sorry don't know your name and that just felt really weird typing that). But yeah, the problem is not just editing it so it's grammatically correct but making sure that you are using the vocabulary and grammar that the students have learnt.
I'm Paul.  But yeah, sometimes we just have to let things go because they are strange for the very reason of limited vocabulary.

As for learning the colon ---as soon as one appears in the textbook, the teacher has an opportunity to explain it (which will take all of 30 seconds), so I don't think it matters if they have come across one yet or not. 

My main problem here is that one of the rules is that a colon precedes a list, but I have yet to see an example anywhere that uses a one in this case...
So I would probably have to say that no colon is necessary here.
The rule also states that it precedes a list when following an independent clause (a sentence fragment that can stand alone) which I'm not too sure if this is or not... but maybe that has something to do with it.  What do you think?

Jotham

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2012, 01:10:40 AM »
Hi, Paul.
Personally I think the colon looks weird. Just doesn't look natural. The statement is an independent clause I think;
What's the most important thing for you?
But even if the colon would be acceptable, I think it just breaks the sentance up to much.

BTW, how do I find out someone's name apart from having to ask everyone? Refering to everyone as captain Bonerpants or Croninokohige, etc. just feels a bit weird. Also I'm looking for a guy called Andy who works at Tsuru 1 Junior High...
Wouldn't it be nice, to get on with my neighbours!

fred

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2012, 01:26:48 AM »

BTW, how do I find out someone's name apart from having to ask everyone? Refering to everyone as captain Bonerpants or Croninokohige, etc. just feels a bit weird. Also I'm looking for a guy called Andy who works at Tsuru 1 Junior High...

Unfortunately, that is one of the issues with using the internet and posting. Not everyone wants to use their real name on the internet and aliases are the ideal way to go with this. There is no ideal balance between anonymity and traceability. Croninokohige did start something in General Discussion (which only members can see) and this went some way to helping the issue.
Are you looking for Andy in particular or anyone who works at Tsuru 1 JHS?

Jotham

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2012, 10:42:20 AM »
I'm looking for andy in particular. It's about a student of mine who goes to Junior 1 who was doing the speech contest but got knocked back at the first teacher audition thing. Smartest kid in school, really well spoken, etc, but didn't get through. he didn't get any feedback either. He thinks the japanese teacher doesn't like him. He told me 'andy' was on the panel so I just want to try and get some feedback for the kid....
Wouldn't it be nice, to get on with my neighbours!

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2012, 10:44:08 AM »
Hi, Paul.
Personally I think the colon looks weird. Just doesn't look natural. The statement is an independent clause I think;
What's the most important thing for you?
But even if the colon would be acceptable, I think it just breaks the sentance up to much.

BTW, how do I find out someone's name apart from having to ask everyone? Refering to everyone as captain Bonerpants or Croninokohige, etc. just feels a bit weird. Also I'm looking for a guy called Andy who works at Tsuru 1 Junior High...
Yeah, Fred's right.
But I think the best way to find out people's names is to meet them ---come to the Pub Quiz next weekend.

Actually, I've noticed that YouTube is now pushing for people to change their accounts to use real names.  I think it would be fine if everyone did so here too, but it is hard to enforce.
Maybe last year, I think, somebody started a thread to try and get people to share who they were ---but with the constant change of ALT's every summer, I think that's gone to the wayside.  Actually, now that I think about it, I did use my real name before but somehow liked the ring of my new handle a little more.

As for the colon question: yeah, I agree, the colon loses this round.

fred

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2012, 11:00:15 AM »
Thanks Paul. Personally, I would not use an Alias on YETI but on other forums, I would want to use an Alias as I do not know the people on there. Others may feel the same way about YETI but also, there are so many Nicks, Matts, Joshuas and Emilys that you need to have different usernames.

Jothan - I will PM you a way of getting in touch with Andy.

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2012, 11:50:12 AM »
OK, new question (comparative/superlative)

Which sounds more natural?
1) "I like dogs better than cats because dogs are more friendly."
2) "I like dogs better than cats because dogs are friendlier."

OK, now that you've chosen one above, try this:
3) "She speaks English more fluently than Japanese."
4) "She speaks English fluenter than Japanese."

The easy answer is that there are exceptions to the rules (famous, fun, etc) but just wondering what others think.

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2012, 12:44:43 PM »
1 and 3.  Definitely 3.  I'm pretty sure 1/2 is completely a matter of preference.  I'm not saying that fluenter has never been used before, but...

Professor Bonerpants

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2012, 01:29:55 PM »
1 and 3.  Definitely 3.  I'm pretty sure 1/2 is completely a matter of preference.  I'm not saying that fluenter has never been used before, but...
Yeah, I think I might have just made up number 4 based on junior high rules about whether an adjective is considered long or not, and therefore whether to use "more/most" or "er/est". 

Basically, in English countries we are taught about syllables to help us determine this, but here katakana can throw that off, so we teach students to count the number of vowels in the word (it kinda works out the same in the end).  If a word has 3 or more vowels it is probably long, 2 or less is short ---but there are always exceptions.

But by this logic "friendly" would have 2 vowels and be short.  "Fluently" would also have 2 vowels and therefore be short (fluenter/fluentlier).  But "fluently" has 3 syllables (beside being harder to pronounce with "er") so it should be long and use "more"...

And in the case of "friendly", I lean towards 2 over 1, since I would consider friendly to be a short adjective (vowel and syllable), like happy or stinky.  However, I believe I have heard it used both ways.
The fault goes to the textbook ---the students learn a rule and are then bombarded with exceptions.  It should really try to keep things simpler... or is that more simple...?

mike

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Re: Edit the Sunshine Textbook
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2012, 01:41:55 PM »
The fault goes to the textbook language

ftfy.  =)